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A group who have interest in saucers and specialise in various other subjects as sidelines such

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as photography and electronics, they're about to launch the TAAPIB.

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Any guesses?

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The Toledo Aerial, no, the Toledo Area Aerial Phenomena Investigation Bureau.

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More and more, and I use this Bob as a lead-in for your particular area, more and more.

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I find that young people, now many of them, what we got are from engineers, scientists,

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doctors, businessmen, but also a large percentage of young guys who are in high school or just

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recently left high school.

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I get the impression that Mr. Rabansky is also a high school student.

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You yourself are a senior at the Newark High Bob.

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Correct.

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Now in your club, I guess along with adults, you have a lot of also older teenagers.

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Yes, we do.

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What do you think it is that has caused this big rash of interest and unidentified flying

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objects?

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Is it maybe the same thing that the teenagers of my generation looked for in Buck Rogers

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or something about the unknown?

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What do you think?

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Well, I think it could stem from that.

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I think that people are most interested in finding out what is flying around in our skies.

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People are always interested in this kind of stuff and curiosity goes a long way with

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human beings.

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And I think that people should be told the truth about flying saucers.

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The United States Air Force says hands-off policy on the UFOs.

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I don't see why the United States Air Force has to condemn this information.

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I see no sense in it.

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I know they're also going to have something to say a little later about the Air Force

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and their position as they've taken on this.

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But you said that the youngsters are trying to find out or want to know what's flying

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around in our skies.

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Why do we know in fact anything is flying around in our skies other than airplanes and jets

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and missiles?

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Well, most of this detailed information either comes from reliable sources.

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People have taken motion pictures and colored films.

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Otherwise, the only thing we have to go on is just people's words that they've seen these

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objects.

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And this is the area where I think most people question.

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It's just a collection of words from people.

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We have nothing actual, factual, a photograph that we can show and point to and say, this

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is for sure.

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There's no questioning this.

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Earlier I talked about this quite often and I'm still straddling that fence in a wedding

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for the day that someone comes up with something sure fire.

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Until that I guess we're stuck with the words of dependable people.

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Let's just take a couple of our telephone questions here before we get into an area

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that I know Earl would like very much to get into.

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And we'll do our best to answer this evening without the scientific mind or the mathematician

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amongst us Bob Grove.

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What's your question, please?

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Could we define what the problem was about the flying saucers buzzing the White House?

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This is something Earl that I seem to recall you talking about before.

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And Ricky, anything about this?

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Buzzing the White House, I'm not sure if they were or not, but they were over Washington.

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They were flying in the city of the White House, but not buzzing it.

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They were flying over in the restricted airspace of Washington.

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And Earl, do you have something further there?

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Well, I have quite a long account on this.

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I would like very much to go out this in another time if I could.

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Is that permissible?

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This is like a good little while?

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It would.

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Okay.

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All right.

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So you keep listening to our...

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I'll refer to it by the way this evening, however.

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Our youthful round table.

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And Earl has a complete story on that, but he feels it would take too much time because

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we have several other areas we'd like to get into this evening.

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Promise, Earl?

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Promise.

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Okay.

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Bob, very briefly, did you have something to say on this subject?

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No, I don't.

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Okay.

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Thank you for calling.

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For Grand P.M., your question.

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If an astronaut is orbiting the Earth and a UFO has maneuvered alongside of him, what

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would the astronaut likely do?

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Oh, you know, what is a man likely to do if he's kicked by a mule?

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This is dealing in supposition.

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I don't know.

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Have our space directors ever considered this?

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Well, this, I think, makes it a good question.

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The last part of it there.

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What are your opinions here?

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You would probably take some photos of it with his hand camera.

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That's about all he could do in a radio back to the capsule communicator and tell them

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about it.

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That's about all he could do.

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I don't think that much he could do except look at it and try to get more details on it.

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Earl?

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I do plan in a future evening to cover this quite completely due to the fact that I recently

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met Bob Walker, or Joe Walker, I should say.

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I've seen so many Bob's around here.

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But I will be corresponding with him as soon as certain photographs are finished and are

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ready to mail to him.

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So I would like to go into quite detail on that too for a future time.

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OK, and I'll just add that the reason Earl mentions that is that Joe Walker, just to

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refresh your memory, when he came back from one of his flights reputedly, had reported

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seeing flying saucers or some kind of object and getting pictures of them and he later

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denied that right here on Program PM when we had him on the show.

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So I think there is room for Earl to expand there and if I know Earl, he will be quite

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expansive.

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OK, thank you for calling.

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Very quickly now, Program PM, what's your question?

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Last week we said that the Air Force knew quite a bit about what?

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About the UFOs.

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And why do we think they won't say anything about them?

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Well, I think now is the time, Earl.

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An answer to your question, I think Earl has a few dozen well-chosen words.

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Earl, right now, let me, I know Earl has an open letter.

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Would you like to explain the circumstances of this letter, Earl?

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Well, immediately following last Thursday night's broadcast, I answered three phone

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calls.

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Is this gentleman on the phone right now?

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This isn't the man you're talking about.

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Oh, thank you.

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Bob was answering calls in the engineer's room.

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I could see him through the glass wall here.

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And I think he perhaps answered about three as well.

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The calls, as always, were from serious listeners.

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The last call was most interesting to me for the gentleman calling was an Air Force officer

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of high rank retired.

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He had never before occurred the program, so naturally was at a disadvantage from the

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standpoint of not knowing how thoroughly we've been covering this UFO subject here.

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He told me that I had been rough on the Air Force.

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We spoke for about ten minutes on the phone and in closing he told me he had enjoyed talking

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with me.

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In this, I assure you, it was mutual.

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Today after talking with you, Harve, I checked the phone book to confirm the fact that it

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was really he who had called me.

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Not just a person using his name?

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Yes.

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And he admitted immediately it was he I had spoken with and again said you were rough on

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the Air Force.

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He told me he would tune in KYW at 10.30 tonight because I knew we'd be on rather late due

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to the news.

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And I said fine, but I, for I wanted to speak to you over the air and in fairness to you,

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I will neither mention your name nor your rank.

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So here is an open letter.

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Can I read it this time?

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Will I take the time to it?

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Fine.

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I'll just make a comment that it's an awful lot of rank.

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Go ahead.

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Dear sir, thank you for calling me last Thursday also at the time you gave me today when I

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called you.

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First of all, permit me to say I do not wish to be rough on the boys in blue, many of whom

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are friends and acquaintances of mine.

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And many incidentally have been instrumental in helping me by furnishing me with valuable

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UFO information, knowing I would use it discreetly.

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When I speak to the Air Force as I do, I am not criticizing loyal Air Force personnel

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carrying out official policies.

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Consider clarifying statements by Captain E.J. Rupilt, the former project chief when

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he said, and I'm quoting him, I was continually told, tell them about the ones we've solved.

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Don't mention the unknowns.

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There were two factions.

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One believed the spaceship's spaceship answer, but felt it should clamp down on information

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until we had all the answers.

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Another group favored giving more facts to the public, including the best cases, unsolved

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movies.

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A new policy went into effect.

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Don't say anything.

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Several years ago, following a lecture, a gentleman wearing wings came to my car, and

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after introducing himself to me, told me he was bitter about the way the Air Force was

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handling the UFO story.

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His reason for this statement was he had lost two of his buddies in a plane because of a

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UFO.

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Yet the Air Force, he said, claims UFOs don't exist.

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Sir, the other night you said the government had no money to investigate UFOs some years

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ago, and you and a few others had to dig down in your own pockets.

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And then when I later questioned you after you had said, do you really seriously believe

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flying saucers exist, you said, we spent $250,000 and didn't come up with anything tangible.

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Now I have questioned you on the amount you had spent, and you said, well, that was legal.

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We used expense money.

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My own investigating has cost me money that I have laid aside for my earnings, but with

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this relatively small sum, I have found out a very great deal about UFOs, under the

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defying obj.

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Sir, in our conversation today, you asked me about physical evidence.

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Aerial phenomena research organization in Tucson has the facts pertaining to the famous

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physical evidence case in which it is found that metal recovered from a disintegrated

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UFO could not be duplicated through terrestrial techniques.

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We have photos of a UFO taken in the presence of 100 witnesses on an IGY expedition, and

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other incidents which led to the Brazilian government's recognition of the UFO as controlled

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craft of unknown origin.

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And two, we have the complete account of the, and I'll spell this out, it's ITAIPU Fortress

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incident, where two centuries were burned by a UFO as told by a doctor who was at the

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scene and attended the injured men.

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Then two, you must surely be familiar with Project Saucer case number 144, which is the

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Eastern Airlines case of Captain C.S.

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Shiles.

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We could spend much time on each of the following cases as well.

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The Gorman Fargo North Dakota case, or the Mantell Godman, known to the Air Force as a

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Project Saucer case number 33, and the well-known Secretary of the Navy, Dan Kimball case of

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1952, or the W.B.

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Nash, or W.H.

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Fortenberry M.M.

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Airways pilot's case of July 15th of 1952, to mention only a very few.

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This afternoon you asked me if I thought there was any intelligence within these craft.

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In 1960, the former CIA Director, Vice Admiral R.H.

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Hillenketer, in his first public opinion on the nature of UFOs stated, and I quote,

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unknown objects are operating under intelligent control.

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It is imperative, he said, that we learn where the UFOs come from and what their purpose

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is.

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Any person who has been a serious ufologer knows the name of the late Captain Ed Ruppelt,

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former head of the Air Force UFO Project.

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In July of 1957, backstage at the Gary Moore Show, Ruppelt told my good friend Major Don

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Lee Feeho that some Air Force officers were angry about his book, especially his disclosure

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of censorship and the secret intelligence conclusion that the UFOs were interplanetary.

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During the November flap of 1957, he confirmed by phone his San Diego press statement that

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there was enough evidence of UFO existence to call for more investigation and that Project

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Blue Book had reports of radiation and electromagnetic interference from UFOs.

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Like Ruppelt, I have before me the statements of many an Air Force officer opposing UFOs

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secrecy.

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I only regret that time will not permit me to tell you what they have said.

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In Major Feeho's book, The Flying Saucer Conspiracy, the chapter entitled The Hidden

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Orders, on page 82, he states the following,

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For almost two months, during October and November of 1953, the censors had fought to

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hide the startling saucer discoveries.

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Then suddenly in November, they had been faced with a showdown by a presidential directive.

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Executive Order 105.01, classification of restricted, was officially abolished, effective December

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15, 1953.

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It was a stunning blow to the silence group for both JANAP 146 and Air Force Regulation

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200-2 were restricted defense documents.

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Unless the censors violated Eisenhower's directive, it looked as if they would have

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to reveal these two long hidden blackout orders on request.

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Besides this, the president's edict blocked a new plan to explain away the saucers through

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a so-called fact sheet.

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Before the president's order, this remarkable statement had been drawn up to answer the

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flood of inquiries.

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After dragging out all the old albides, such as hoaxes, birds, mirages and balloons, this

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document also attempted to offset the key points I had revealed.

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We of NICAP are trying very hard for a congressional hearing.

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According to my most recent information, the reaction of Congress shows the impact of the

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NICAP evidence for all members of Congress received copies of the August-September 1962

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NICAP issue, which was really a preview of evidence of the existence of U.S. Oaks.

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It is pitiful when one realizes the apathy shown by the American public.

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Far too few are contacting their congressmen, perhaps because they do not realize the dangers

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of secrecy, especially the risk of accidental war.

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A few weeks back, we mentioned that the strategic air command, as we have found out, had on several

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occasions chased UFOs, possibly concerned that Congress might probe UFO investigation costs.

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The Air Force now justifies the huge outlay as, quote, scientifically worthwhile, unquote,

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the major C.R. Hart, UFO spokesman in Washington, D.C., in a letter to New York's NICAP affiliate

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president Muriel Brookman.

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To the question, why does the Air Force oppose open congressional hearings, said, or rather,

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I should say, wrote, and this is a quote, the Congress of the United States has more

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important affairs to which their limited time is devoted, unquote.

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Now in closing, I would like to invite you, sir, to take my place at the microphone here

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at KYW, and I promise to remain silent during the entire broadcast, giving you ample time

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to express the Air Force's views.

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And that's right in keeping with our invitation to other Air Force spokesmen or old to also

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step forward and participate with our U.F.A. around the table.

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And I will be the first to say that the invitation was, well, not turned down, but what they

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were willing to contribute was simply that they know nothing about it.

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I would like for them to tell me a little bit more.

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So again, to this gentleman or to anyone else who is next with the Air Force, please, we

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would very much like to hear them answer some questions that our listeners have been putting

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to us in the early new and also Bob Grove have been raising.

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I'd like to hear firm answers from the Air Force.

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Right now it's nine minutes before 11 o'clock.

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This is Mark Morgan.

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This is the U.F.A.

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round table.

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Erla, if you have any answer from this former Air Force officer, I hope you will let me

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know about it.

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I will let you know immediately.

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And I would be only too happy to call it.

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I'd be very interested in knowing his answer to your answer to him.

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All right, let's get some more telephone questions in now.

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What's yours, please?

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All right, Chris, go ahead.

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About the citizens of Maniform, let me stop you because Bob Grove isn't here.

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And he was handling that particular phase of our discussion on the citizens ban.

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So would you call next week when he'll be here?

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You want to try the other question?

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All right, go ahead.

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Are there many hams connected with ufology?

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And what you're already operating, let's find out.

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What do you think?

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I happen to know Edward Cot here in the general Cleveland area.

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I think he's out in North Royalton.

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And from what he tells me, it sounds that that question would be answered in the affirmative.

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All right, Ricky, Bob, what do you think?

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Well, in our group, when we intended to start something like this, of course, we don't have

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too many members that do have amateur tickets, but we're hoping that we can get more.

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And myself, I'm going for one soon, and I'm going to try to start some sort of net.

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I think it's necessary in order to get all the settings.

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It would seem to lend itself to the sort of thing, you know, keeping immediate contact.

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Yes.

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Thank you for calling.

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P.M., your question, please.

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You were listening in last week.

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We told about the different magnetic detectors, yes.

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Where can you get these?

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Bob Grobe was speaking last week about the magnetic detectors.

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You know where one might get them, Earl?

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No, I think the best thing to do is refer him to Bob Grobe.

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Okay, you drop this letter here at the UFO round table for Rampy MK-YW and Bob will answer

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it for you in the mail, okay?

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Just send it to UFO round table, okay?

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Thank you for calling.

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For Rampy, your question.

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Were there any identified flying objects shot at by weapons of this country?

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Do we know of any for a fact, Bob Miller?

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Ricky, you know of any?

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Yes, there have been many sightings like that.

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I can't bring up the specifics on one at the moment, but I know there have been many firings

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in the mail.

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Earl, what do you think?

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Well, the one that I mentioned recently, the one that was a question about the night

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over Washington, D.C., was the one that I had stated Admiral Knowles retired.

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One of our Board of Governors of NYCAP actually held a piece of the metal in his hands as

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about two feet long was curved.

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And that was as a result of the anti-aircraft fire I was told that hit one of these during

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that big flap of 52.

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And is this pretty well documented and authenticated?

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I'll tell you how I learned about it through another NYCAP board member, Reverend Baller

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of Massachusetts, and it was Admiral Knowles himself, Reverend Baller told me, told him

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this.

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It seems to me I have also read at various places where maybe not they have fire, but

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they have chased these things all over the skies.

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Have they not?

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Have they?

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Yes, yes.

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Our Air Force have chased these people.

326
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Oh, yes.

327
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Okay, thank you for calling.

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Program, V.M., your question.

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If I could know where you could find out more information on missing or crashed planes

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connected with UFOs, you know where the information might be available, which books?

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In the way of books, quickly I couldn't mention any one particular one where you'd get a

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bulk of them.

333
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Doesn't the Major mention a few in his book?

334
00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:23,160
Yes.

335
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Before me here I had the Flying Saucer conspiracy of the Majors, and then of course the Major

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Keio Downey Keio, and then there's the later one still of the Flying Saucer's top secret

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by him, also Carl Lorenzen's latest great Flying Saucer hoax.

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And in all of these books that are written by these better people who know what this

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is all about, you will find a reference, but I can't tell you just any one place where

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you could find a great number.

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Okay, thank you for calling.

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Your question, please.

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We mentioned about the Ufology members being Hams, and you are a member, and a Hamm, as

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a comment, about six months or so ago, that the sighting made, it was around the Maple

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Heights area, and there was definite radio disturbance.

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You didn't see the sighting yourself, but the sighting coordinated was the time you

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were on the air, and you had radio disturbance.

348
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So it's a practical purpose then too.

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What is the next meeting of the Ufology project?

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Which Ufology project?

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00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:47,880
Cleveland Ufology.

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Cleveland Ufology.

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Always the second Saturday of each month at the Central YMCA at 8.30 p.m., always the

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second Saturday of each month.

355
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Okay.

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That's a 20-second prospect.

357
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That's a 20-second prospect.

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Central Y.

359
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Okay, thank you for calling.

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I'd like to find out something from Ricky or Bob.

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I, in a way, thank from past programs, I know Earl's views on these.

362
00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:15,680
How do you account for these flying saucers, say Bob?

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What kind of person, thing, people, it?

364
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:21,880
Who is it?

365
00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:22,880
What is it?

366
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:23,880
Who's in them?

367
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:30,320
Well, I think it's an intelligence far superior to ours, possibly located on one of our sources

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in planets or possibly in system galaxies.

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00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:38,000
I would take a chance in saying either Venus or Mars as a possible or likely most probable

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place for such a civilization to exist.

371
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Okay.

372
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It's talking on the different types of the occupants.

373
00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:46,400
There's so much been written.

374
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I really don't think that I go along with these humanoid, the humanoid as we are.

375
00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:53,680
You don't.

376
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Especially the contact stories.

377
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I especially found interest in Coral Rinsen's book about the South American sightings where

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they seem to be short little men with bristly hair.

379
00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:07,920
And they seem to be very strong.

380
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:11,200
Well, isn't this the comic book picture more or less?

381
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Short little men with bristly hair and long ears.

382
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:18,800
Yes, but if you take into consideration if these UFOs and these occupants come from a

383
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planet that has more of a gravitational pull or atmospheric pressure, they would be shorter.

384
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Now, time is just about up for this evening on the Upholigia Roundtable.

385
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:30,840
Time to move over and make room for the Tom Griffiths show.

386
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:33,400
It's as always running short of time.

387
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,320
It seems that we just get started on some areas.

388
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There goes the time we get.

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So my thanks very much to Bob Miller up from New York, Ohio and the President of the United

390
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Saucer Council of Ohio and Ricky Hilbury, the Vice President of the Cleveland Branch of

391
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that organization.

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And of course to Earl Neth of our own Upholigia Roundtable.

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And Bob Grove, we missed you tonight.

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We'll call the meeting to order again next Thursday at 10.30 on program PM.